Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So as part of our message today,
[00:00:01] Speaker B: it's my pleasure to welcome or invite the wonderful Isan who's going to be doing some interviews.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: Hi. Good morning, Church. I'm really excited to get an opportunity to speak to you today. But joining me will be Mark Holden and Briley. So if I can get you both to come onto stage, that would be amazing.
Yeah, thanks. Cheer for them as they come.
So my name is Ehsan. If you don't know me, I recognize that next month I will be in Church for 14 years. I feel like that's a long time. You're not getting rid of me now. Sorry. You are absolutely stuck with me.
So I'll get Mark and Brady to introduce themselves and then we'll tell you why we're here. So Mark, are you able to introduce yourself?
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah, well, my name is Mark Holding. I'm an ex secondary school teacher, computer science and I'm the DSO which is the the designated Safeguarding Officer for Rediscover Church.
[00:01:06] Speaker C: My name is Bridie and I live in Ottery with my husband Alfie and my background is working in schools with children and young people. And I now work for a mental health charity and I'm the deputy Safeguarding officer alongside Mark.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
So this morning what we're going to talk to you about, we're going to talk a bit about safeguarding and I know some ways when you hear safeguarding you probably think policy or training or an email that I've sent you about doing safeguarding training. But we believe it's absolutely the heart of God loving people is ensuring that they're safe when they come into our church community. So we'll be talking about that this morning. So Mark, can you tell me what is safeguarding?
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Okay. Safeguarding is really about protecting people. Yeah, that's protecting people. Let's say that after. 3, 2, 1. Protecting people. Brilliant. Okay.
So when we're protecting people, we're protecting health, we're protecting well being and we're protecting people's human rights as well. Yeah, we put structures in place to prevent harm, abuse and neglect.
We are often responding to incidents that occur. But we spend more of our time in the prevention area putting structures in place so that we don't have issues.
Safeguarding is something that it's not just up to Bridie and myself. It's up to everyone in the church to make sure that people who come through our door there are safe and protected.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Thank you, Mark. Yeah. Bridie, how does keeping people safe connect directly to our faith and the love that we have for each other.
[00:02:50] Speaker C: Yeah. So when I was thinking about this, safeguarding links to our faith because we are all made in the image of God and deeply valued by him.
And so safeguarding isn't just about policies and procedures, but it's actually a practical working out of our faith in terms of showing people love, respect, and just caring for one another.
And Jesus taught us to love our neighbor and protect the vulnerable and.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:18] Speaker C: Treat others with justice and dignity. So actually, when safeguarding is done, well, it's acting out and living out that teaching from Jesus and making sure that people feel like they. We are in a church community that is, they feel secure and listened to.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Absolutely. I love that. And they feel listened to. I really love that. Bridie. Mark, what can we do so adults and children feel safe enough to, to share their worry and concerns with us?
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Okay. I was reading about that this week, actually, in 1 Peter 3. It says, finally, all of you, be like minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble as well.
So, you know, we've got to try and build trusting relationships in the church.
That doesn't happen if we gossip.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:10] Speaker B: It's really important to cut that out. You know, if someone's telling us something that's really serious, you know, something has happened to them, please keep that to yourself and report it if appropriate. We need to build those trusting relationships.
We need to try and develop a safe culture where people are happy and feel safe to share.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And what I know this, this is kind of. He doesn't know I'm gonna ask him this question. Yeah. But I'm, I'm a psychologist by trade and I get to be curious as part of my day to day job is what we do. So when you say develop that safe culture, are there things that you think you spoke about not gossiping? Yeah. Are there other things that you think that we could do to help develop that safe culture in church?
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's, it's to do with not gossiping. It's to do with being really good listeners as well and responding with compassion.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: So if someone is telling you something, listen carefully, take it seriously and obviously show compassion.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think, and I'll talk about it more later, but there is something so key about how we listen till people don't feel judged. If someone's telling us something that might feel a bit heavy. How we listen. Well, even if we're concerned with the behavior, they know that we've heard them, we love them, and we want to do something to make them feel safe and supported.
Bridie, if we become concerned about an adult or a child, what should we do?
[00:05:41] Speaker C: So if you had a concern about a child or an adult, then it's important to act promptly and take it seriously, like we've been talking about.
And the safety of the person at risk always comes first.
So firstly, like we've been saying, listen carefully and try and stay calm, don't promise confidentiality or try and investigate things on your own. I would just say to have a conversation and try and take notes of what's happened as factually as possible.
Include things like the date and the time and if anything else has happened.
And then what we would ask is that you would log that on our website.
So hopefully, yes, you can see here the, the safeguarding part of our website. On the Safeguarding Hub, we have a link to a Google form and then with that concern, we would just ask that you would log it on the Google form. And then that alerts Mark and myself and it means that the appropriate action can be taken.
Every concern that is raised is taken seriously and followed up appropriately.
And then the only other thing would be if somebody felt like they were in immediate harm or risk of danger, we would say to speak to a church leader so that they can guide them appropriately or call 999 if it is an emergency.
And that same process is true for if you do have a concern about somebody who's in a church role, to follow the same safeguarding process, just like we say. So we can keep the church a safe space for everyone.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you, Mark. What else can our church do to develop our safeguarding practices?
[00:07:17] Speaker B: Okay. Well, we have been commended by our regional safeguarding lead for the development that's happened in the last year.
We still haven't got things perfect, but we are in a constant process of reviewing and improving our practice.
So in November this year, we've got the regional safeguard lead, Rachel Cook, coming down from Liverpool to give us some days training. She'll be training all volunteers in the church and also safeguarding leads as well.
She'll also be doing an audit, so she'll be looking at our processes, what we do at the moment and offering us some advice for improvement.
So we're really open to improvement. We're constantly moving. It's an area that's constantly changing. When I was a teacher at school, back in September's our safeguarding day, the first hour, there was always something new that was introduced to us teachers, something that's developing in society so we can't stand still. We've always got to be developing.
So that's what's happening in the most recent future. So that's how we're going to develop.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you to Martin Ryder.
Hi, good morning. So, as I said, my name is Isan and I work as a child and educational psychologist, like Mark said. September, when children and young people go back to school. The first email that lands in my inbox is kind of updated safeguarding practices and policies. And I imagine that sometimes when I say safeguarding, like Mark said, you might think we're talking about a policy you need to do or training that you have to engage with or a form you need to fill in. And what we are hoping after today and as it goes through the DNA of our church, that you recognize that today safeguarding lives in the heart of God. God loves his people and he absolutely wants to keep them safe. And it is part of our outworking, of our ministry and of our Christian values that when people walk through the door, they know they are loved. They're going to find friends and family here and we're going to be able to protect them.
And so part of our DNA of a church is that we say that we love extravagantly and I cannot separate that loving people extravagantly from checking in to see that they are safe and they're protected. I am. Oh, that is not working. So I can't see what the time is. It's not good. I did not let me know how much time I have, so do excuse me.
I feel as if when I moved here, so I'm originally from the Caribbean and when I moved here in 2010, I went to Nottingham. I genuinely thought your safeguarding practices were over the top. I thought your health and safety was the most complicated thing that I had ever seen in my life. And I thought if you came back to the Caribbean, you would absolutely take our children away from us.
Because I was like, I need to fill in this form to take this child across the street, or I need to make sure that there are two people all the time when I'm working with vulnerable adults and children. And initially I was like, well, what is this about? Why do I have to do this? This feels like such a tokenistic tick box exercise.
But as I've lived here more and more and I've found out the history of things that have happened, I've recognized that it's absolutely about preventing things to ensure that children and young people and that we're all safe.
Because if we think about the history of the church globally. We've not always been great at this. We've not always been safe places for people to share their hurts, to speak about stresses that they've had to notice when things aren't quite right or. Or quite safe.
And so what those safeguarding practices are, is supporting our confidence, to lean in and recognize.
I need to support somebody here.
Something isn't quite right.
I need to reach out to this person. I need to notice what's happening. And while we can see safeguarding as this alarm or this trigger, as Mark was saying, when you know people well, when you live in relationship with people, you notice when things need to be addressed quickly. So it's about prevention. I've noticed that something isn't quite right. I've noticed I've not seen you for a while in church, or that behavior is really odd for that person, what's happening. And we are God's hands and feet. He gives us that mandate to help his flock, to support his flock, and that is what we absolutely do.
If you mind putting first John 3:18 says, Dear children, let us not love with words or speech, but with action.
And in truth, that is what First John 3:18 says to us.
And a couple, I think maybe 10 years ago, I really felt like God was saying to me he wanted me to be a peacemaker. And I was like me with my voice and my attitude. A peacemaker. What does that mean, being a peacemaker? And more and more as I studied what that meant and what being a peacemaker means, I realized it's not being a peacekeeper.
It's not not saying the difficult thing.
It's not not having the awkward conversation so that you don't upset the apple cart, as we would say. It's not.
It's not being silent because you don't want to offend or upset.
Being a peacekeeper is sometimes recognizing that a situation feels really unsafe or it might feel like war. And through your voice, you push through to get to peace. So being a peacemaker feels like, I'm not sure why we're doing this. And people who are in meetings with me in church probably notice that a lot. I'll probably notice that a lot. I'm in lots of meetings with Al. He probably goes, and Helen, what is she gonna say now? What is she gonna raise now? Oh, she's put her hand up. What has she noticed?
And the truth is, you have to be brave to sometimes have conversations with people that you absolutely respect and love. And it's not that you do it in an angry or hurtful way.
It's that with love, you're saying, noticed something that's happened and I'm not quite sure about it. Can you tell me why that's happening and that's loving people? I want people, when they walk through the door, to absolutely know that we respect you here, that we see you here. You will be protected. And we have Safeguard practices in place.
When you teach your child to ride a bike, you hold onto the bike until they feel safe enough to pedal on their own.
When you teach your children to swim, when you teach people to swim, you stay right next to them. My dad stood right next to me until I felt safe enough to be able to swim on my own. And Safeguard is thinking about what do we need to do so that people feel safe when they come in here, so that they can thrive in the things that God has for them.
As a psychologist, one of my jobs when I go into schools or settings or colleges is I'm really curious about what this behaviour is communicating.
When children and young people are having a difficult time of school or a difficult time at home, they call me in as a psychologist to help make sense of it.
And one of my jobs is to try to help the adults around children and young people think about what's happening here. And one of my questions often is, does this child, does this young person, do they feel safe? Is this behavior communicating distress or that I don't feel safe? And I really wish. Well, maybe not. I really wish that children would say those words, but they don't. Children don't go to you and they don't say, I don't feel safe here.
Their behavior tells you that they don't feel safe here.
Adults behavior tell you that they don't feel safe here. Children don't say, I don't really know these people at school, or I don't really feel that they like me. They don't say that they might do. Young children don't. They don't say, I find learning really difficult and the thought of trying to learn something new fills me with panic. And so I have a big behavior to get out of the pain of learning. They don't say that. They don't say, I really want to make friends, but I don't know how, so I'm going to avoid it. They don't say, home doesn't feel really safe, it feels really chaotic. There are lots of strange people in and out. They really say that unless they feel safe with you. But what we as adults have to do is that we have to notice behavior. Behavior is communication.
That's how we know something is not quite right. And as a church community, we have to live in communities. Well, so I notice that behavior doesn't feel quite right. That behavior is telling me something is not okay, rather than, oh, this young person is playing up, or this child is playing up.
Are they not safe?
And that can be our question.
Young people are similar. Teenagers will probably tell you, but they'll also tell you with their behavior.
I've noticed you've not been in church this week. I've noticed you're not hanging out with your friends anymore. I've noticed you're hanging out with older adults and you stop coming in. You don't make eye contact anymore. You've isolated yourself. I've noticed that your behavior is different. I notice you use a lot of raised voices and your language feels really unkind.
Do they not feel safe? Is something happening? Do we need to lean in a bit more?
And adults, you aren't much better in using your language to tell you how I feel. I wish you were, but you don't often do it. You don't say.
If adults generally said, I'm feeling really insecure about this situation.
I feel really scared. I don't know what's going to happen with the bills or the relationship.
I feel really frightened about something new. I feel really unsafe with this person.
But often that's not what they say if they don't have relationships or they don't feel safe, that when they speak, they will be heard.
What we often see is adults beginning to isolate themselves or really angry cross behavior. And our role as a community that loves people extravagantly is to notice that and to get alongside people and question what is happening. How can I help? Are you okay?
And I wonder whether some of the reasons we don't do that is because we don't feel that we have the skills to do that, or we don't have the resources to fix the problem.
Or maybe we've not noticed that something is wrong because in a church this size, I can't possibly know everybody really well. But there are a handful of people that I know really well who I thank God notice when I'm struggling and I notice when they need help and absolute support.
And my granny used to say that God has called us to be fishers of men and not cleaners of fish.
And what she meant was, it's not my job to sort everything out for a person, but I can bring them to the one who loves and cares for Them, I can show them God's love and compassion. I can notice when things are not quite right, and I can lean in as a friend and say, can I help you here? Do we need help here? What can I do to support you?
I'm really, really fortunate that I have good friends who notice when I am overwhelmed and stressed and busy. And I have a really bad habit of when I am overwhelmed and stressed and busy. And I'm going to be really transparent. I get really busy. My days can feel really busy. Moving from, like, stressful situation to stressful situation. And I believe God's given me the capacity to handle that and support people through difficult situations and seasons. But sometimes when my life is really busy, I can often forget to eat. Lynn and Carolyn are really good friends, and they know that about me. And they will say to me, have you eaten this week?
Hannah, who's probably watching online, will say, what? Have you eaten? It's been a busy week. Have you eaten this week? Food shows up at my house, at the door of my house. They will bring food. If Mary's here, she brings food and she puts it at my door. Because when I'm saying I'm having a really busy week, they know me well enough to think, I wonder whether that girl's eating, you know, because we know what she's like. When she gets stressed and busy and overwhelmed, her body forgets to tell her eat. I just get so focused in the task that I'm doing that I just. I forget.
And I have friends around me who notice that I am overwhelmed and I'm stressed, and they lean in to support me.
And that's what I'm wondering. In your lives, who are the people around you who would notice if your behavior starts to change?
Who are the people who would notice?
Hang on. That's not like you. That's not like Ann. Ann is lovely and friendly and smiley. If you walk into church, she gives you the biggest hug. Yeah. She, like, squeezes you. You feel, like, wrapped up. Hang on.
Ann's looking a bit sad today. I've not seen her for, like, three weeks. What's happening with Ann? Is everything okay? Is she safe?
Who are the people around you that you know that notice when things have changed? And who are the people that you notice?
In a church of this size, we must be in relationships with each other. We must be in community.
And while safeguarding can feel really hard, like it's an alarm, I'm concerned I need to tell on this person because their behavior has not been safe.
Prevention means that we put things in place before we get to that point of I am genuinely concerned and I think this is really, really unsafe behavior.
Psalm 46:1 says, God is our refuge and strength.
He is our ever present help in time of trouble.
Jesus is the good Shepherd. When I think of Jesus as the good shepherd, I see him, yes, feeding the flock and yes, and yes, leading them, but also protecting them from harm, protecting them from danger and as his people, as his hands and feet. That is absolutely what we are called to do.
Safety is where people absolutely thrive.
When you feel safe, when you feel connected in community, it supports your well being, it supports your emotional regulation, and you find it easier to do the things that God has for you when you move from a place of safety.
We want people who come into this church to know without a shadow of a doubt that in this church community they will be valued, they will be cared for. You will encounter God's love here without fear.
Your dignity matters to us. You will be protected and you will be safe here.
And I guess my question is, as a thinking about what Mark said, in terms of what else can we do in terms of supporting safeguarding here, do we know if somebody was experiencing harm?
Would they feel safe to tell someone?
Would a child, a young person, feel safe to say, this situation makes me feel unsafe, I am not safe? Would they know who to turn to for help? Would we respond well? Would we know how to respond? Being a safe church, being a refuge, means that we absolutely can say yes to those things.
Safe relationships.
When I'm working with children and families, we know that that helps to absolutely repair the impact of painful experiences and the impact of harm. When you feel safe, when you know that your needs will be met and that you're in a community who sees you and protects you.
It's also because we notice people and we know people.
For example, I wish I could know all of you, but I can't possibly know all of you. There are new faces every Sunday and it's lovely, but it's also having the courage to be. To say to people, hang on, Jason, who's that person with the young people? I don't know them. Are they new to our church? And not in a brutally honest, harsh, suspicious way, but because we know that the people that we have here are valuable, the lives that we have here are valuable. Our job is to protect them and honor them.
So we lean in curiously and kindly when we notice things that aren't quite right.
I find brutal honesty. I think some people think I just want to Be brutally honest and say it.
And I find when people describe themselves as brutally honest, they probably want to be more brutal than they want to be honest.
And it often doesn't change behavior when people feel attacked or shamed or discriminated against.
But in the confinement of a safe relationship with. In a church community that notices people and loves them and wants the absolute best for them, notice that that situation that you are in is not safe. It is not okay. We want to help you. We don't want to shame you. We want to support you and get you the help you need. We want to get alongside you and support.
That's what changes behavior through relationship, through safety. And as a church community, being God's hands and feet means that we notice people. We are compassionate towards them. We want the best that God has for them. We want them to thrive in the things that God has for them. And our love for them means that they are safe and protected when they come into our church.
There are so many.
There are so many verses in the Bible that speak to safeguarding and loving each other. Galatians speaks about carrying each other's burdens.
Matthew speaks about loving the Lord our God with all our hearts and with all our souls and with all our minds, and loving our neighbors as ourselves.
Psalm 82:3 says, Defend the weak and the fatherless. Uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. Proverbs 31 says, Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves. And Romans 12 says, Love must be sincere.
Our outpouring of ensuring that our love to people, that safeguarding is love in action, is that we notice people well. We live in relationships. We provide support.
God's heart is for people to be healed and come into every single thing that he has for them.
And that our church community is a place where people are held to account and that children, young people, the vulnerable, and you all are safe to worship God freely here and to step into every single thing that he has for you.
My prayer is that the church recognizes that this is an outpouring of being God's hands and feet, that safeguarding is not only training and policy and procedure, but it's part of absolutely loving God, loving people extravagantly.
And I pray that in the days and the weeks ahead, you be reminded that this is part of your outpouring of loving God and loving people.
I pray that everybody will know that you are my disciples because we love each other.
I pray that you will notice people with compassion.
I pray that you will listen without judgment.
I pray that we will be A church that has healthy and safe boundaries.
I pray that we will feel confident to speak up when something is wrong.
And I pray that our church will be a church where everybody is safe.
In the name of Jesus, in Jesus name I pray and Father God, if I can pray over you now.
I pray God, that we take up the mantle of being your loving hands and your feet.
I pray that you give us eyes to notice, ears to listen, and may you give us courage to speak your truth.
I pray that you give us wisdom to act and humility to seek help. Father God, I pray that we know that in this place we can be honest with the friends and the family that you have placed around us and that we can ask for help when we are not safe, when we're not being safe, and when the thoughts and feelings that we have do not reflect your goodness and your glory.
I pray, Father God, that the response response of the church is that people are treated with dignity and care and compassion.
And I pray God, that your love be made visible among us.
In the name of Jesus.
Amen.
Amen. Amen.
So as we come to the end of our first service, the 9:30 service, I pray that you feel stirred to think about what you could do differently in the weeks ahead so that you notice more the people around you so that they feel your love and care.
I pray that if you need to talk to somebody, you know who you can come and speak to, that there are people around you that you trust to let them know when things are not going okay and when you are feeling unsafe.
And I pray that the church community responds with kindness and love and compassion.
In Jesus name, Amen.
Are you guys going up again? Okay, so we've come to the end of our first service. I'm sure there are teas and coffees. I'm so sorry, Donna, Lydia, I didn't give you enough notice.
There will be teas and coffees upstairs. Please stick around and genuinely get to know people around you. We are a large church community and while sometimes it's lovely to chat on Sundays, there are lots of lovely ways to be involved. Either through connect groups or life group or serving on team. And our desire is that everybody here is connected and has people that knows them well. Amen.
Amen.
