Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: It okay.
Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
As he began the settlement, a man who owed him 10,000 bags of gold was brought to him.
Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had may be sold to repay the debt.
At this, the servant fell on his knees before him.
Be patient with me, he begged, and I will pay back everything.
The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt, and let him go.
But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.
He grabbed him and began to choke him.
Savage.
Pay back what you owe me. He demanded.
His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, please, please be patient with me and I will pay it back.
But he refused.
Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.
When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. So the master called the servant in. You wicked servant.
I canceled all that incredible, massive debt of yours because you begged me to.
Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?
In anger, his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured until he should pay back all that he owed.
This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or your sister from your heart.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Thank you, Des. That's so helpful. It is an absolute, Joey. We do feel like we're among friends, and it's just been amazing. And the way that the Lord has just birthed this is just remarkable, and we thank him for it. So I can just say that when we go to places, there's not necessarily any technology that we can use. So I'll just speak. So there's no PowerPoint, because if you go to places and you try to use PowerPoint and there isn't any power, you just end up pointing, and that's no use to anybody. So let's pray, shall we?
Father, thank you so much that you have given us this opportunity. And, Lord, we want to focus on you, because without you, this is nothing. But with you, this is everything.
And so we pray. Lord, would you just come and touch people's hearts and lives today through the only way that you can in your power? We pray in Jesus name. Amen.
So I just need to give you a heads up, really, that the subject that we're facing today is difficult. It's not straightforward. It's not easy because what we're looking at is forgiveness.
And we have to start by understanding that the cross and what Jesus achieved for us on the cross is the only thing that makes forgiveness possible. It is not possible on our own. Forgiveness is a supernatural thing, but it is enabled through what jesus did on the cross so that we might know the freedom that comes from that.
In one John, sorry, in Ephesians one seven, it says to him, we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins in accordance with the riches of his grace. And Hebrews 922 tells us that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins, but because of his shed blood, all sin is covered. Then one John one nine says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Jesus hung on the cross, and in the process of being murdered by the people he had created, he cried out on the cross, Father, forgive them, because they do not know what they're doing. Can you imagine, would you have been tempted not to create those particular people and somehow avoid what was his reality?
But he created a father, will you forgive them because they don't know what they're doing? And he was already in the place of forgiveness when he prayed that out, because in order to be able to forgive, he was there. He'd already let go of it as he prayed that forgiveness over those people. I'm just going to lay the cross down for a moment.
And every time we pray the Lord's prayer, what do we pray? We pray something similar. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have sinned against us. Now you can read that in a couple of ways. One is, as I have been in the process of forgiving, then that I will receive forgiveness. Or you might say, okay, Lord, in the same way that I forgive other people, will you forgive me like that? Does that sound particularly attractive to you? I know I struggle with that. But in Matthew, as Jesus sort of unpacks that a little bit more, there's a bit at the end. And it says this in Matthew 614 and 15, if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your father will not forgive your sins.
Does that sound a bit difficult to you? Sounds difficult to me because when I read those words, I'm looking for the get out clause, I'm looking for the wiggle room.
Lord, you can't possibly mean that, can you? That if I don't forgive somebody else that you won't forgive me. Surely, Lord, this is all about grace.
And so he either meant it or he didn't.
And I truly believe that the reason that he said it is because he meant it.
And so the question for us then is, what does that look like in our lived out daily reality? What does that actually mean?
I think one of the issues that we face is the fact that we probably don't really understand what forgiveness is. We might have a concept in our mind of what it looks like, but if we don't really understand what forgiveness is, how can we ever really, truly understand how we do it? I say it's a bit like saying to somebody, I love you, but our heart's posture towards them demonstrates anything. But so to know how we love somebody, we need to have an understanding of what that really means in reality. And I think the same applies to forgiveness, because it's as important to know what forgiveness isn't as much as it is to know what forgiveness is. And once we understand what it isn't, then we can actually apply what it is and see the freedom that it brings. This is what Jesus intends for us. So what does forgiveness not mean?
Often when we use the word forgiveness, there's another word that comes quite quickly after it, because we forgive. And there we go. Can you.
Does your brain work like that? Mine doesn't. And I think one of the issues that actually considering what happens today in our culture, is that now, because of the way in which things are projected on our social media posts and things like that, the things that are happening to us are not just something that is personal to us now. It is something that is out in the public domain. And what has happened to us is we post it, we talk about it, it's all out there.
So the possibility of forgetting is removed from us, is actually taken out of our control in a lot of ways because other people might repost it and it goes global, it goes viral, it goes all over the place. So the opportunity to forget is not even something within our control, even if we could, because I don't believe our brains work like that, it's not what happens. We can't forgive and forget. And in fact, some of the places that we go to, people have been physically injured through a physical attack. They may well have been raped and had a child as a result of that rape. How can you possibly forget if you've had a limb lopped off or if you've got a child through something that has happened to you, you can't just easily forget. But I don't believe that's what the Lord is asking of us anyway. So it's not forgive and forget. And it's not saying that the wrong that was done to us, we sometimes have to somehow have to try and ignore, pretend that it didn't happen. If I just pretend it didn't happen, if I try and minimize what happened, maybe that will give me the capacity to be able to approach this in some way or to deal with it in some way. And we just can't. That's not what forgiveness is either. It is not trying to minimize at all the pain and the torment and the hurt and the reality of that within our daily lives in how we live it out. That's not what forgiveness is either.
It doesn't mean that the person who has had that atrocious move towards us somehow gets away with it.
Because the truth is, one of two things happens.
Either that person will personally stand before the throne, the judgment throne of God, and they will account for their life before him.
Or if they are a believer and have given their heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, that price was paid on the cross for them, too.
Nobody gets away with anything.
But we need to release that person from our judgment.
It doesn't mean that justice doesn't get done. Because if somebody has committed offense in the eyes of the law, they are still responsible to the law for that. They can still be held responsible for the crime that was committed. It's just that you can be in a place of forgiveness so that you're no longer bound by it. So it doesn't mean that somehow, if an offense is committed, that that was okay. It doesn't mean that they get away with that either. They are hold to account and so they still need to serve. They feel like justice still needs to be done.
If we forgive, it doesn't mean that that person that we've forgiven somehow owes us something as a result of that forgiveness, that somehow now they're obligated to us because we've been generous enough towards them in extending forgiveness.
And it doesn't mean that we have to trust that person again.
Doesn't mean that you have to let them into your life again. Because forgiveness and reconciliation are two different things.
Forgiveness takes one and that's you and me.
Reconciliation takes two and it takes two people to come together. So it doesn't mean that you have to say, because I've forgiven, I now need to let this person back into the life that's before the Lord I'm just saying it starts in a place, and it starts with forgiveness. So if that's what forgiveness isn't, then what is it? What does it look like?
Well, first of all, it is being obedient to the command that Jesus gave when he said forgive.
As we pray out, every time we pray that Lord's prayer, we're asking, Lord, will you forgive? Help me to forgive. And what it does is it releases somebody from our judgment to the cross.
It said, I am choosing, lord, to lay all this aside, taking my judgment off and laying it at the cross where it belongs, where it's dealt with, where only you can carry this burden for me. And that's a big one. Because don't get me wrong, I am not minimizing the reality of the pain and heartache that we go through in regards to forgiveness, because the places that we go and the people that we've seen and the testimonies that we have are just horrendous. The worst of the worst of the worst. And yet even in the midst of that, what we have seen is the healing and the deliverance and the release that comes when people come to forgive. It is a key. It is a fundamental key when it comes to us living our lives with Jesus. Absolutely, 100%. The thing is, that takes a big thing, because when we have been damaged by somebody, when. When we've been hurt somebody, we want to dispense our own kind of justice.
We kind of want them to suffer.
We want them to suffer and have the sort of pain that we've experienced, and maybe then we'll feel better about it. But the problem with that revenge cycle is it is never enough. There is never a moment when that person will have paid sufficient for you to go, all right, then I think I'll let go. Now. It doesn't work like that, because every time you think about it, all of those feelings come back again, and you just want to do the whole cycle over again.
The only way is through what jesus did on the cross. So we choose to hand the judgment of that person over to the cross, letting them go from ours and into his. It's surrendering that right. Jesus tells us, doesn't he? Do not judge, or you yourself will be judged. That does not mean there will not be a judgment, but it belongs to him and not to us, because our view is limited and constrained and really, really tight. What he brings is far, far wider. He sees the big picture, and we don't.
It means not what forgiveness means, not waiting until the other person has said sorry before we choose to forgive. Is that what we're waiting for? We're waiting for some kind of apology or some kind of change of attitude on behalf of that person towards us that we can go, okay, now you've changed your posture. Now I can forgive.
It's not at all. That person may not even think that they've done anything wrong, so how can they apologize for it? They might not even be alive now.
These things might have gone back so far.
So it is not waiting for that. We can choose to forgive first and let it go. Because forgiveness, it starts with a free will choice. It is always our choice to do. That's how God has made us and equipped us, that we have the choice where we can choose to forgive. And sometimes it's really difficult, but once we've made that decision to choose to forgive, it starts in our minds, but it works into our hearts and we go on in the very early.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: Sort.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: Of birth of that. Our charity has been in existence for about 20 years.
And my boss, a lady called Jan Ransom, who is just rubbish. I love her so much. I work for the best person. I really do. She's great. She was in Germany and doing some of this sort of teaching, and she was at a conference, and while she was sat around the table, she was having into a conversation with somebody. And it became clear what had happened to this lady was that her two year old daughter had been sexually abused at a nursery by the two people who should have been caring for her.
So Jan gently spoke to this lady and said, do you think that you could possibly come to a place where you forgive that person?
And this lady said, absolutely not.
And you understand that. Of course you do. You understand that that would be the response to what had happened. This is the reality of what they'd been through.
So through the course of that time, this sort of teaching was delivered. So Tajan just asked a different question. She said, do you think that it would be, can I pray for you, that you'd be willing to be willing to forgive? And she said, yes, I could do that. And so that prayer was prayed, and really the first layer of the onion was peeled back. Now, you probably realize that when you start to chop onions, tears can flow.
And for this lady, that's what happened. The tears started to flow. And over a sustained period of time, with lots of gentle ministry and encouragement, she went from a place where she was being willing to be willing to forgive, where she started to lay it down, making that free will choice. I choose to forgive. I choose to hand judgment over, remembering that this does not validate what had happened to her daughter in any shape or form. And over probably about six months, she came to a place where she could say, I forgive.
What's fascinating is that in that moment when she had forgiven her two year old daughter had been having behavioral difficulties because of what had happened to her, the moment she forgave, all of those behavioral difficulties stopped.
So this is one of the things that happens when we come to forgive. It affects other things. It can affect us in our physical being. It can affect other people. When we release. We've had so many testimonies when we have done this teaching in some of the countries that we go to, places like South Sudan, the Democratic Republic of Congo, northern Uganda and Pakistan, and Jordan and Istanbul, working with people coming from the persecuted church, that as soon as they've come to a place of forgiveness, that something happens where that person they've forgiven suddenly makes contact, saying, you've been on my heart, you've been on my mind. And that's when reconciliation takes place. But it is supernatural.
Sandra, I wonder if you could just come and help me a moment, would you? This is my amazing wife. She's beautiful. She's my best friend. I love her so much.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: Did you see that?
[00:19:35] Speaker B: I build her up. I build her up, and I say how wonderful she is. And then I let her back into my life, and all of a sudden, she just does that again all the time. And I close my eyes, and I can't get her out of my head, and I start to think about all of the things that I could say about Sandra fall, because people say to me, oh, that's Sandra. She's so lovely. She's so brilliant. She's so great. And I say, you don't know her. I could tell you a thing or two about that woman. I can tell you about nothing. And it just gets me all of the time. And then I'll go and I'll get her it. I'll deal with it. I just say I'm going to forget it. I'm going to push it down, and then I'll see her again, and all of the things come streaming back, and I go.
Anyway, I release you, my darling. Bless you. Thank you.
She's so good.
So how can you know when you haven't forgiven somebody what's going on? Because you might be sitting there thinking, well, I don't think I've got anything to forgive normally when we hear that. So give it a minute, or something will come. I'm sure, because forgiveness is a lifestyle. It's not an event.
And I think what happens is maybe we think about the massive things, the big things. I haven't got any of those, but those small, incremental, chopping away those thing, the drip, drip, drip effect of those things that start to change the way that we think or feel towards somebody or events that have happened to us, that make us guard, that say, I'm never going to trust anybody that same way again. And so we start to build kind of like a protective wall around us that says, I'm going to put a barrier between me and you because the hurt is too much, and therefore, I am not going to let anybody anywhere close. And what happens is we believe that with God as well.
So have you ever been in a situation where you've had rehearsal of what you're going to say to somebody when you meet them again?
You just think, right when I see you, there's this.
Oh, that'll be a good one. I'll do that one. And we just start to construct this narrative of how we're going to sort of give them it. You're going to give them both barrels in good order. That's probably an indication that there's some unforgiveness there.
Or maybe when you hear that person's name and somebody is talking good about them, that you go, well, I'm going to put you straight, and you give all of the criticism that you can about that particular person, you ought to know what they're really like. And so here we go. That demonstrates that there is unforgiveness in us, or even that you're imagining the things that you could do to make them suffer. What can I do to make that person's life difficult?
And we end up justifying it. I'm justified in doing this because of what they did to me.
And therefore, it's okay.
I've prayed with Sandra beforehand as whether I should share this next story.
All right, so I have a friend called Bruno. He's such an amazing guy. I love Bruno. All my friends appear to be tall. I mean, that's one of the things as a short person, I spend my whole entire life face to know. It's the way it is, so it's okay. But Bruno was from Rwanda, and you're probably aware of that. There was a terrible genocide there some decades ago, and a whole thing was a turmoil. And in the village where Bruno lived, there were some people across the square from where they lived, and this man came and murdered his father.
Dismembered his body, hid his body, and then wouldn't tell anybody where the body was.
So this man was prosecuted. He was taken into the courtroom. And as a 16 year old, Bruno sat across the courtroom from this guy.
And in the courtroom scenario, this guy basically said this. He said, if I had the opportunity to do it again, I would, but this time I'd use a sharper knife and everything within. Bruno wanted to climb across that courtroom to dispense his own kind of justice upon that man. And he thought, and he constructed ways. He thought, well, even if I get myself into prison, maybe that would be a way where I could dispense my own kind of justice, because I can't get towards him because there's guards in the way.
And then he came across this teaching, and he realized that the only person that he was truly hurting was himself.
That through all that he was holding on to, it was causing him to have inner turmoil and bitterness and anger and hatred and revenge. And that's all he could think about.
And it was tearing him apart internally and spiritually.
And so he came to a place of forgiveness, and all of it was released.
And he is absolutely free.
He travels around with us on mission. He's going to be going to South Sudan in a few weeks time, and he will teach on forgiveness.
This is not a theoretical exercise, folks.
This is the reality of who Jesus is as he brings his freedom and liberty from the things that the enemy wants to keep you bound by and says to you, you're the only person who feels this way. You're the only one who's experienced this. So you just get on with it. You deal with it. You carry the weight of it. And the Lord Jesus Christ would say, I have come. That you might have life in all of its fullness. You do not need to bear the weight of this. You do not need to carry this around with you. You can be released because of the power of what Jesus Christ did on the cross. It is the only way.
It is the only way.
It is all about him.
It is all about him.
One of the things that we do when we forgive, it unlocks us from this self made prison.
Again, there's a great quote that says that if you hold on to bitterness and unforgiveness, it's like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die, because that is what you are doing to yourself. It's what I do to myself every time I hold on. And it is a process.
When we forgive, we can know the fullness of God's peace and deliverance and joy. It heals our relationship with God. It allows God's healing to come. Sometimes it allows physical healing to come. We had a guy who was again, one of our missions, and he had got a frozen shoulder. He couldn't move it. It was so painful for him. And his two boys had been murdered by the Lord's resistance army in South Sudan, and he again was looking for revenge. He was holding on to this anger and bitterness and he came. And when we are in countries, we will do something, I'll tell you, but as a response. But what we get people to do is to come and nail a red disc into the cross as a sign that they've let go, that they're nailing their forgiveness to the cross. They're recognizing what jesus did. They're not nailing the person to the cross, but they're saying, I acknowledge what you did for me, Jesus. I am beginning that process and I nail it to the cross. And so as this teaching was delivered, this guy came forward and he nailed his red disc into the cross. And immediately that he had done it, he could raise his arm.
It is the unlocking to all sorts of things, because forgiveness, or rather unforgiveness, keeps us in that prison where the enemy would say, you stay there, and the Jesus says, you come here.
So that's how we can walk into that.
So who should we forgive?
Well, obviously the most obvious one are those people who have hurt us. It can be friends, it can be family.
Oftentimes I think it's more difficult to forgive somebody if it has been against somebody who we love so dearly. Somehow that feels a lot more difficult because it makes it feel as if we're validating what has happened to that person. Of course we're not, because we need to understand what it isn't as much as it is. So it's forgiving those who have hurt us or even those near and dear to us, letting it go, not allowing that to be what holds and binds us.
We also need to forgive ourselves.
In ministry, that's often probably the most difficult as to how. Somehow we think that whilst it's relevant for everybody else, that what Jesus did was sufficient for them, somehow that doesn't quite apply for us. Because the enemy would love to say, you bear the load, you bear the brunt of it, you pay the price. And then Jesus would say, I bore the load, I bore the brunt of it, I paid the price.
So why would we try and then do it?
Because the enemy would love to keep you in that place of bondage. That's why.
And thirdly, although he doesn't need forgiving because he's not done anything wrong, sometimes we need to forgive God because maybe we feel that what's happened to us, God, was at fault.
And I'm not saying that things that happen to us are not confusing sometimes. And we're looking for an answer, and maybe we'll get an answer, but maybe we won't. Maybe the answer that we get won't be until we get to the glory and we see the Lord face to face, and then we'll know.
But we need to let God off of our judgment and say, lord, I trust you, Lord, I give myself to you, Lord, I release that. I don't want to hold on to that. I don't need to hold on to that. I want your freedom. I want to know the lived reality that is your forgiveness at work in my life, that I might be able to see that at work in me, and as a result, live that out to the people around me as well.
We're people of the good news. And the good news, folks, is that you don't need to carry this anymore. You don't need to hold on to this anymore. Whatever it is, you can give it to him and know that it's completely and totally dealt with.
So may I ask you if you'd stand? Can we do that?
If you're able.
So I wonder what it is that the Lord has been speaking to you about as we've been thinking about this again. This is between you and him.
Where did he want to take you?
Is it maybe for you today? That's the prayer that, Lord, help me to be willing, to be willing to forgive. Is that your step?
Is it? Lord, I choose to forgive.
Just ask him right now. We say, come, holy spirit, would you guide and lead in this place right now?
Lord, I pray that you would really bring your release and your peace into this place right now through the power of your holy spirit.
Thank you. That through the cross, every foul and despicable and horrible, unjustified thing that has ever happened to us was born completely and fully on that day. There is nothing left to pay. There is nothing left to do. We walk in it.
But we're a work in progress.
So whatever it is, if you want to do, Gan, this is an invitation, not an imposition. Just create a fist.
And just imagine in that fist, that's the hurt, that's the pain, that's the sorrow, that's the unforgiveness. That you are currently carrying.
And what we're going to do is we're going to release it towards the cross. We say, Lord, I choose to forgive. We let it go. So let's do that now. Lord, I choose to forgive. So let it go.
Let it go to Jesus.
Lord, I just pray for my dear friends here that they would know the completeness of what you did on the cross.
And that, Lord, this day will be different from now on, for all you are and all you have done. In Jesus mighty name.
Amen.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: Amen.
Church, could we just stay standing just for one more moment? I'm going to pray two things just in response to what Ian's brought.
Please only say our men at the end of this, if you absolutely believe in what you've just said and you're happy to promise that to the Lord.
Lord Jesus, Holy Spirit, in response to what Ian said about this not being an event, but being a lifestyle, I give you permission and I absolutely invite you, Holy Spirit, to reveal to me those relationships and situations moving forward in my life that I need to forgive.
I invite you to reveal those to me as I carry my life through on this journey.
Amen.
And this is the second thing, Father, Holy Spirit, I decide now that I'm going to live a lifestyle of forgiveness.
And, Father, would you help me as I choose on those occasions that you reveal to me, Father, would you help me? Could I partner with you to truly choose a lifestyle of forgiveness?
